This transcript was generated automatically and lightly processed; it may contain small errors. Please check against the audio before quoting.
Sanam There is no interest on the part of three countries, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Israel, to have legitimate democratic open states that are functioning in the region.
Kavita Ramdas I mean, 40% of India, 40% is young people under the age of 35. So, you know, Modi cannot afford to not listen.
Sanam Hello and welcome back to If We... Let's do it again. Here we go again. Yeah, exactly. Here we go. Hi, everyone. Welcome to If You Were In Charge with me, Sanam Naraghi Anderlini.
Kavita Ramdas And me, Kavita Nandini Ramdas.
Sanam So, this is our last episode before a little bit of a break for the summer, and we're going to be kind of freewheeling a little bit. So, bear with us. But the first piece of news that we're going to tap into is Kavita's new status as grandma. Oh, my goodness. What does it feel like? Nani. Nani Jan. Nani Jan. Okay. Nani Jan. What is it like to see your own child have a child?
Kavita Ramdas It's wild. It's such an extraordinary experience. And, you know, Sanam, I was just thinking, it's also very humbling, right? Because you see this tiny being, and you remember you brought this tiny being into life. And now here's this huge, real grown-up, mature, extraordinarily competent woman, and she's brought new life into the world. And at the same time, I think the humbling part is that, despite all the privilege that we have of our daughter living in the United States, and the best possible health care that she has access to, because she doesn't need to depend on any kind of non-existent state delivery services. I think it also reminded me, as someone who's worked on women's rights all my life, how this is still a perilous moment, that a woman, every time she brings a new life onto the planet, basically puts her own life at risk. And that's true, whether you're Serena Williams, or Meera Ahmed, or Meera Ahmed Prilo, or Sanam Naraghi Anderlini, or Kavita Ramdas. That's just, that's just, that's so humbling. So I'm happy to report that all the results were fabulous. So along with the World Cup, it was the World Cup final when little Parker Katari Prilo arrived, and we got to see Spain win.
Sanam That's amazing, yeah. The pictures that you sent, and of his little feet, and the little toes, and the nails, it reminded me when, when my kids were born, and I kept looking at them and thinking, what is this miracle that knows where to put which toe to get it right? I was looking at 20 toes, and, and 20, you know, whatever, you know, I mean, everything was. You were having double vision, so to speak. Just this miracle of everything is so perfect, everything inside is so perfect. I was having a conversation recently with a, with a guy, and he was saying, you know, men's lives go in a straight line. Your, women's lives are cyclical. It's like every, you know, menstrual cycle, in a way, it's like, it's life and death. // But it's, it's to this point that on the point of life, you are faced, you could be facing your most perilous moment, right? And it's just.
Kavita Ramdas Yeah.
Sanam And the fact that women do this. All the time.
Kavita Ramdas All over the world. All over the world, with the most minimal circumstances. Meera was asking Zuli to recount the story of how he, that's my husband, who was born in a small coal mining town. And the person who helped to deliver his mom was his nine-year-old sister. And the local village woman from, from the village who, that was all they had available. And I, and I also think about the fact that so many children in the poorest parts of the world, and particularly young girls, don't actually have the luxury of being children. They have to grow up so quickly to be able to help their younger siblings. But it's also kind of amazing to watch the, the process of this new life, miraculously kind of coming in this perfect way.
Sanam Like, the other thing that I found every, with my own kids, but also every time I see little babies, is that we do our work for them. Like, everything that we, and it makes me cry just thinking about it. But it's like, to think that this is the world that we're giving them. Um, they deserve the best. They deserve a clean planet and peace. // And, and, and, and all of them. And it just, but it is for them. And I just wish that more people, and people in power, would think about the babies that are born every day.
Kavita Ramdas It's, it's so fitting in a way that we're doing this reflection on our season. Because I felt like Parker Katari arriving. And Katari is my, my grandfather's, my maternal grandfather's middle name. So, you know, it's also, it also made me think of cultures coming together. Here's this child of an Indian-Pakistani union, our daughter, Meera, marrying this, who's married to this young man, who's of Huguenot and Scottish and Irish and goodness knows what else descent American. And here's their little baby coming into a world. And that's also the world we're hoping to create, right, Sanam? It's this world of, of, of a more peaceful, a world in which our humanity matters first, not what culture we're from, not what nationality we hold, not what passport defines us, or what boundaries or borders define us.
Sanam And so that was also a moment.
Kavita Ramdas Color, oh, and that's been so interesting too, right? Because then you watch all this amazing genetics take place.
Sanam And, you know, this, this blending and merging that, that you have and I have and, and our children have, um, it is, it's always been. It's always been. It's history. It's human history. But the more complicated it gets, the more I sort of feel that they will be, they will rise above, and the world will rise above this moment of extreme kind of weaponization of identities and polarization that is going based on this idea of-
Kavita Ramdas Ethnicity and faith and, yes.
Sanam And these, these children demonstrate that, of course, we're all the same and pluralism is the way you would want to go. And, you know, Obama used to, used to call them the, he used to call himself, I think, the mutt or something like that. You know, this idea that you're not purebred, but actually it's, you know, so it's very humbling and energizing and just lovely to see and, yeah, to be a grandma. I mean, I was thinking about my mother who, I think she was also, she was 63 when I, when I had my kids.
Kavita Ramdas That's exactly the same age I am.
Sanam Yeah, and, and how wonderful it is because she had the energy to be there and they've really grown up with, with her. So, yes, and it's going to be a wonderful, wonderful few decades going forward. Yeah, how lovely. I was scrolling through something and all of a sudden I see this, you know, this news that in India, the Gen Zs, which I love, is my favorite generation, have mobilized. And it's like the medical students and this idea that India has over a million medical students. They take this incredibly difficult test. Only, what, 10,000 of them or something get through. It's crazy, yeah. And the others are thrown. By the wayside.
Kavita Ramdas By the wayside. Right. Without any guarantee of any kind of job. The head of our Supreme Court, he began this by saying, oh, these young people who are complaining about not having jobs, they're just, they're, they're no better than cockroaches. They're, they're a plague on our society. We don't actually need them. That's how this began. Cockroaches. The head of our Supreme Court.
Sanam And then, and then, and then, of course, because they are the generation that they are, and we love them for their humor, they flip that around and they become the.
Kavita Ramdas A young man, a young man who is a Dalit, who is a member of India's untouchable caste, who is studying abroad at the time, picks this up and puts a little meme out and says, if we are the cockroaches, may we be millions of cockroaches together.
Sanam And that goes viral. It's amazing.
Kavita Ramdas That they call themselves, so instead of, it's the BJP, which is the Bharatiya Janata Party, which means India's People's Party. And they've called themselves the CJP, the Cockroach Janata Party, which is, we are the cockroaches People's Party. And it's just, I mean, from B to C, you know, it's like moving on.
Sanam Yeah, it's, it's, it's, and, and they're out there and the education minister has, has resigned.
Kavita Ramdas Has been forced to resign, which is one of their primary requests, and which has never happened in Narendra Modi's 10 years in power. He has never been forced, even in the middle of those amazing farmers' protests, the protests are trying to dismantle India's Citizenship Act for people who were of Muslim origin. In all of those protests, Narendra Modi never agreed to dismiss anybody from his cabinet. And, and here it goes, you know, the education minister.
Sanam So, yes. This, this feels like it should be the middle of the beginning, not, even though they probably want it to be the end of, the end of the end, right? Like, they just want to sort of throw this one guy under the bus and carry on. But it, but it doesn't feel, feel like it's going to be like that, right?
Kavita Ramdas I think this is a wake-up call in the way that, in some sense, the young people protesting Gaza were for the United States, right? I mean, that, too, was Gen Z. That, too, were all these young people who had cut their teeth on protesting the murder of George Floyd and had been high school students then, and many of the students who showed up. And I think that, in the same way, I mean, I was astounded to read an eighth grader told her parents that she was going to the protest. And the presence of young women, Sanam, in this has been quite extraordinary. Young Muslim women dressed in full hijab, holding placards saying, you send the police to lathi charge us. A lathi is the weapon that the British basically invented. It's a wooden rod with a steel tip on it, and the British had Indian forces use that against Indians who were protesting for independence. And now that's what the Modi government used against the students. And here's this young woman, a medical student, holding up a sign saying, you use lathis against us, but rapists in your government go scot-free. Because there's so many men in Modi's government, like there are in Mr. Trump's government, who have been accused of sexual assault. And, yeah, it just gave me such a sense of hope.
Sanam It's fascinating, because you see the pattern. I mean, I was in India a few years ago, 2023. I was asked to speak about the Woman, Life, Freedom movement in Iran, and it was, you know, it's young girls. It was schoolchildren who were cutting their hair. And it's like, you can't fight this force. This is a river that's coming, and precisely because it's non-violent, your violence becomes diminished, and it makes, it reflects back on you. It just... Exactly.
Kavita Ramdas I mean, 40% of India, 40% is young people under the age of 35. So, you know, Modi cannot afford to not listen. Is this a temporary victory? Of course. Is it a sign of, you know, are the opposition parties going to really change or transform? We don't know. But much as in the same way as, I think, when people dismissed those students protesting on Gaza, they could not have known that three years later, which is where we stand right now, the majority of people in the United States no longer support the state of Israel. That is a transformation that one of our guests spoke about, you know, Stefanie from Jewish Voice for Peace. And it's real.
Sanam Now we're seeing before the midterms that if you are supported by AIPAC, it's going to be a black mark against you for many of the politicians on the Republican and the Democratic side. And yet AIPAC is one step ahead by going and getting this bill passed last week on the integration of military intelligence and technological development.
Kavita Ramdas Between the United States and Israel.
Sanam And you're like, and so this is where I'm like, it is important to keep the eye on the ball. Like, you know, a lot of the times it's like you need the protest, but you need the strategy. You need the vision. You need to know what the other side, what games they're playing and what hardball they end up playing. And this particular one, I'm thinking, is it going to get passed in the Senate? Is it just performative? Is it because meanwhile, there's another bill that's just that's going through Congress this week, which is to cut $3 billion of funding to Israel. So I'm like, is it is this the same Congress? Is there schizophrenia?
Kavita Ramdas But what is inspiring to me, Sanam, is that truly you and I are both people who came to the United States and spent considerable amount of time here. You are now back in the UK. I still live in the US. I do think that I would have been blown away if someone had told me even 10 years ago or seven years ago or five years ago, even, that you would have two different kind of bills. So different going through Congress at this exact moment. It is absolutely inconceivable that we would have had this other bill trying to cut aid to Israel and that that many senators... And Congress people would be actually committed to standing behind that.
Sanam It's weird to say brave enough, but it but it's basically it's reached that point where because it it used to be it used to be if you stand against it, that you would be destroyed.
Kavita Ramdas And now correct.
Sanam It's unclear where it goes, but yeah, yeah, very, very like these this this forces of I won't say dark and light, but you know, there's there's a real...
Kavita Ramdas And we've seen it in Iran also. I mean, I feel like this whole season we have been dealing with not just Gaza as a backdrop, but an assault on the Iranian people, on the Iranian civilization, as he called it, which indeed it is. You know, we began early in January with people power on the streets that was horrendously crushed by the current regime in Iran. And then we watched sort of in absolute alarm and dismay as basically Israel tried to deflect attention from Gaza by persuading the United States to attack a country that has not sent weapons against the United States, has not bombed anything, has not destroyed anything in the United States. And so here we have this really interesting moment where we have people who were non-violently trying to change the government in their own country now being bombed, now being bombed by the people who claim that they are wanting to help them.
Sanam But then the masks are off, you know, that this this I think this is the shift that many in the Iranian weather diaspora internally have come to realize, because for years, those of us who were against war and against sanctions would say, Okay, this is not, you know, number one, these kinds of attacks will strengthen the regime, we saw with sanctions that it did, but we said war would also strengthen them. And the change comes from in from the internal dynamics change comes from when you have a stronger middle class, and when you open the doors, because Iran is an aspirational society. Okay, so we got attacked, I would get attacked of being, you know, you're a regime supporter, you're an apologist, you're all sorts of things. And of course, from the other side, I would get, you know, you're, you're an agent of, I don't know which, which agency, whichever it is. Yeah, which acronym letter, that's right, which, but, but the argument that we always made, and, and we, I saw with my own eyes with when I was working on Syria and Libya was that there is no interest on the part of three countries. I wrote about this in Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Israel to have legitimate democratic open states that are functioning in the region, because if Iraq had become, you know, what it could have been, Iraq is a small country, it was educated, it's wealthy, etc. They would have stood up to Israeli occupation of Palestine, they would have pushed back on Wahhabism from the Saudis, and they would have challenged the UAE's economic dominance in the region. Iraq is on its knees, those three benefits. Same with Libya, you know, it's on its knees, and Iran has been the one that's been standing. And again, it's, it's understanding that the agenda is the destruction of the country, not just the regime. And, and it's, it's wanting a pliant kind of, you know, kiss the ring type of a leadership there.
Kavita Ramdas That's, that's all they want. Which you're never going to get from any Iranian.
Sanam Well, you, we have, we have one guy who keeps saying, I'll, I'll do it, but, but we don't want him. But, but it's, you know, so, so to, for Iranians to see that what we were saying, sadly, has come to pass, right? That, that you're, the destruction of schools and hospitals and bridges and so forth. So that, that's one thing. The other thing, which has been really, it hasn't received the attention that it really deserves, is that every war that the U.S. fights, they test new weapons. We know that in Iran, they've tested AI as an integral part of its attack strategies. That's why they were able to do a thousand targets a day, thousand targets a day for 30 days in a row. Because there is no, there's, you know, the data and that there's no human assessment of, is this right? Is that a school? And there's no conversation about the implications of this, about what the U.S. is learning or not learning, about how they assess this. Because I, I was speaking to a journalist about the Maven project, which is, which is part of this thing of bringing Google into the Pentagon. And she said that in 2021, it was AI that, that identified the target of a compound in Afghanistan, saying, oh, these are Taliban and, and, you know, they're white cars. And so it turned out to be an aid worker with his children. And, and then it turned out that the AI algorithms didn't identify children.
Kavita Ramdas They didn't see the children. Right. Because they were too small and they had.
Sanam No, they were just not programmed. // They were just not programmed in, right? They were programmed in to see the white cars, but not.
Kavita Ramdas Yeah. Yeah.
Sanam And when the programmers had gone back to the Pentagon at the time to say, well, we can change that so the children are identified. At the time, the Pentagon had said, no need, no need. We don't, it doesn't matter, right? So, so I'm, I'm curious, five years on, six years on, do they identify children? Is, are children now being identified for the purposes of actually targeting them as we saw with, in Gaza, in Israel, right? So, so.
Kavita Ramdas Yeah, and what we've heard from the UN report on, you know, what actually happened to children and how they were directly targeted. Exactly. We don't know.
Sanam It's, it's this other horrific Pandora's box that's been opened. And, and, and this time it's, it's on Iran and, and it, you know, it breaks my heart many times.
Kavita Ramdas How are you feeling about where we're at? Because, I mean, it's, it is really an interesting thing because I think if anything, the rest of the world, and it's interesting that you mentioned the three countries in the region that don't want to see this be resolved. But I think for much of the rest of the world, Sanam, it has also given the world some hope that the asymmetry in power relations within what is called the so-called global international rules-based order has been so revealed to be an order that disproportionately favors one particular group of nations over others. And the double standards that have been revealed, but Iran standing up, and this is kind of the dilemma for us as feminists, as people who are democratic, who want to see a more open, tolerant, joyous regime, is that by the sheer fact of resisting this huge military empire with all its weapons, with all its might, with all its resources, to fight back in, in no less an asymmetrical way than we experience with the Vietnam War or the Algerians fighting the French.
Sanam You know, when this war started, my proposition, as I told many people, was that it's a lose-lose proposition for all sides. Iran has paid an inordinate cost in human lives and infrastructure and in history and economically going forward, environmentally going forward. The U.S. has lost standing in the world, and it has proven the limitations of this massive military identity, right? I call it dumb defense. It's dumb because it's these hulking great big, you know, aircraft carriers and these very expensive, you know, whatever, defense missiles that are meant to go up, and the Iranians are hitting them with $20,000.
Kavita Ramdas Neighboring countries, that is especially the dumb part, where they didn't think that they would need to protect the UAE or the Saudis or any of the, or the Jordanians or anybody else in the region, because all they cared about was protecting Israel.
Sanam Israel. And that's, that's also revealed itself, right? It's a lose-lose for the Gulf states as well.
Kavita Ramdas Israel, I'm not quite sure, because I think that they... They've basically been given cover for their continued assault on both the territories of other nations, as well as their continued violence against Palestinians inside both Gaza and the West Bank. I mean, the world is not paying attention because there's a war going on.
Sanam Yes, and it's, and they're burning. It's, it's burning, right? And the MOU, as I've said before, that, you know, when they signed it, it was the best option, better than, better than carry on. We didn't invest in the building, the building blocks and putting in the systems and monitoring and committees and whatever. And, and also the world rallying around it to say to Trump, this is good, well done, carry on in this direction. This is, you know, this is, this is the right thing to do. It was, it was, everybody was saying, oh, it's a bad MOU. I'm like, better than, better than the other option, right? Like, you, you work with what you have. Then they bombed again and, and everything escalated. And now we have this pause, but it's really scary. It's very scary. It's July 27th. So I'm going to give a date just, just for the recording of this. Because what's happening is that Yemen, I was just talking to our Yemeni, one of my Yemeni partners. And she was saying Yemen is getting ready for a massive reignition of the, of the war there. With, you know, the Houthis and the government and, I don't know, the Saudis and so forth. So they're waiting. The Iranians, basically, their, their, their approach has been that, okay, if the U.S. hits, they, they retaliate. Okay, so now there's a pause. But if you listen to the naval analysts and the military analysts, people will often say, well, the pause is often the moment for rebooting. Yeah. The mass of humanity that is being transported. Ported.
Kavita Ramdas To, to, to the region. Militarily, yeah.
Sanam And then you bring it to August. And August, it's the month that usually I, I have my family break. And I'm, you know, we're kind of in our little village. We go to this little village and we pretend that it's, you know, it's like a sort of little magical moment of, of family break. But every time we turn on our, the television or our phones, it's, August is often the moment when a lot of terrible things happen. The Israelis. And they do it on purpose because they think people's minds are distracted. And the world, the West is on holiday.
Kavita Ramdas The West, the West is on holiday, exactly.
Sanam You know, Afghanistan, the Taliban took over in the middle of August, you know. So, so it's, I'm, I'm kind of taking this moment with huge trepidation because it, I don't trust what is coming from the US and the Israeli side. I think that the Iranians, I mean, from what we're hearing from the Iranian government, they come, they get this, they, they are also like preparing. But what drives me insane is that, again, it's literally a bunch of men who, who are sending other people's kids. I mean, the Iranians actually, to, to their credit, will say things like, we know that our own lives are at risk and we're, and, and of course they've seen their own friends and colleagues side. But, but still it's putting other people's children at risk. It's, you know, if they have their own, if they have places to, to go and shelter, what is it for the ordinary public? Where, where are the shelters for the public?
Kavita Ramdas And all of those children were once as little and as defenseless and as beautiful as our little Parker Katari. Yeah.
Sanam And, and since Parker was born, there are so many more, I mean, he's, he's already older than. He's already old. He's a week old. He's a week old. And there's a whole other week of babies that have come. And, and, you know, I just, it just goes back to what I've done for 30 years. I'm like, if, if, if there were a bunch of women sitting around the table, would it be like this, would we, would we look at the world and, and plan and execute killing with such ease? I just, what is it about these men?
Kavita Ramdas I mean, I, I think of, I think of the wonderful call of Julia Ward Howe, who was the founder of what is now celebrated as Mother's Day. But what we forget is her proclamation, the Mother's Day proclamation in which she says, disarm, disarm. Um, you know, I, I called to the mothers of this earth and that was her rallying cry. And really, I think it's not surprising that we've had women at the forefront of peace building and, and efforts to try and bring an end to wars.
Sanam The work I've done over the last 30 years on getting Resolution 1325 at the Security Council that says women should be at the peace table. It, when you try to trace its trajectory, it goes back to the League of Nations when women, again, from South America and other parts of the world were saying, we want to be at those tables where you guys are making these decisions. Just, we want it, we want a seat at that damn table. And that table is moving. It's, it morphs because the minute women move into those spaces, that power goes to another room and it, and goes somewhere else. And that's, that's where, that's what I, again, I look at the world and I'm thinking now it's in this, in the space of the trillionaires and the billionaires and those guys.
Kavita Ramdas But so every time you basically are allowed to come to one table, then they move the actual, the, they actually, they actually move the seat of decision-making away from that table to a completely different one. And, and it is interesting because I was just thinking, here am I working for an organization, IPPF, that looks at questions of how we bring life onto the planet. And here are you trying to say, and once we have that life on the planet, can we please do everything in our power to preserve, to protect, and to celebrate that life? Because without a commitment to peace that is based in justice, we won't have that. And there's something kind of quite fitting about this circle, isn't it? It's just, it's, and it, it is one that women understand, as you said, because our own lives are put at risk every time we bring new life. So. Thank you.
Sanam Thank you for being with me every couple of weeks and, and for hanging out. It's been really fun. I have loved it.
Kavita Ramdas And I felt so honored because, you know, we had Soleh as the first co-host, your wonderful, your wonderful daughter. And, um, I thought that it was just a continuation of a friendship that I felt so lucky to develop with you through the Bosch Academy and the fellowship at the Richard von Weizsäcker fellowship. So I, honestly, I think it's been so much fun and I'm so grateful.
Sanam grateful for have, for having you as a co-host when you said you could do it. I was like, oh, yay, this is like, you know, getting the chance, hitting, aiming for the moon and getting it.
Kavita Ramdas I think we both have been so fortunate to work with, and in your case, create organizations that, um, really do represent the striving that you were talking about, you know, this striving for a better world, this dreaming, this imagination, this radical imagination.
Sanam And, and just getting on, like Rumi says. And just doing it, you know. You know, take a step and the path appears. And I'm like, that's, it's so true. You just take one step and then another step and it just, it just creates, you know, it's amazing. You don't realize what you're doing.
Kavita Ramdas So I feel like from the, you know, from the International Planned Parenthood Federation, where I work now, to ICAN, which you founded, to the Global Fund for Women, where I worked for 14 years and had the privilege of supporting women's rights groups all over the world, I just feel like in a world where we are constantly besieged with news about what's not going right, I feel like this has been, you know, every week when we talk to one of these people, it's just a reminder. In the way that I remember proposals coming to the Global Fund used to be a reminder to me of all the good that is happening in the world, of all the courage that is being shown, of all the passion that people are pouring into.
Sanam And how good they are.
Kavita Ramdas And how good they are.
Sanam Decency there is. Yes. What just goodness there is.
Kavita Ramdas Because I think it's easy for us to feel depleted and despairing when we look at the people who are in the headlines, because, you know, the Erdogans and the Trumps and the...
Sanam And the Modi's. The Modi's. // Talk about the cockroach. Oh, we do. So, you know, that's what I'm saying.
Kavita Ramdas I think that when you look at those young people, they, in a way, are no different than the many people we got to talk to, right? Stefanie from Jewish Voice for Peace, there in the middle of a genocide, is an extraordinary young Jewish woman who says, not in my name, not on my watch, not in any way are you going to claim that what you stand for as a genocidal state in any way represents Judaism or the perspective of Jewish people around the world. So, I do think that we've been lucky, Sanam, and I'm so glad you gave me this chance. Thank you. So much fun.
Sanam It's been so much fun and it's been so... Plus, it's been like having tea with you in your...
Kavita Ramdas I know, every... Exactly. ...apartment in London.
Sanam We get to hang out and, but, and I, and, you know, I hope that we will carry on into the new season with, in September with, with some other guests and carry, just carrying on building, it's becoming like a little portfolio of extraordinary people, right? It's, it's, you know, just wonderful. Yes.
Kavita Ramdas It's our, it's our little bouquet of the most delicious smelling roses we can have, you know, the best, the best, the best in the worst of times.
Sanam Yeah. Yeah.
Kavita Ramdas Yeah. Truly. But, you know, speaking of best of. Pearse, our wonderful colleague who makes this happen and produces these wonderful shows, um, much love to you and the family. Hope you do get some time in a little bit of a escape from the world around us.
Sanam And may there not be war this August. May there, may, may they, may, may sanity and decency prevail. Yeah. And, and enjoy, enjoy the baby. Keep sending us pictures. I will. And we'll be back on air hopefully in September. We'll, we'll announce our new. Lineup. Yeah, exactly. Lineup. // Excellent.
Kavita Ramdas Big, big hug and lots of love.
Sanam This was If You Were In Charge, a podcast brought to you by ICAN, the International Civil Society Action Network. Get in touch and tell us what you think at info at icanpeacework.org and follow our newsletter. Like and subscribe and please tell everybody else who might like the show. My thanks to ADA Productions for making the show possible, to Little Monster Media for our music, and of course to my amazing co-host, Kavita Nandini Ramdas. And finally, to all of you for listening. We'll be back soon. Thank you.