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Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger From the river to the sea is all Palestine. And if you won't admit it's a historical truth, at least admit it's a truth of identity. That's not going to change. And the whole land from the sea to the river is historically Israel. That's, again, a fact of history and a fact of identity. It's not going to change. (....)
Sanam That's Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger, my guest this week on If You Were In Charge, with me, Sanam Naraghi Anderlini. Welcome, everyone. The show is brought to you by the Robert Bosch Academy and my organization, ICANN, where for 20 years we've been working with women peacebuilders on stopping wars and violence around the world. And as you know, each week I talk with other doers and imaginers about the tough issues they tackle. And I ask them what they'd do if they were in charge. (.) It's good to be back with you after the break for the U.S. elections. We will definitely have an episode to look at the future of progressive politics and the Democrats soon when things are a little bit more settled. But as I promised last week, for the next two episodes we're trying something different. two different experiences in peacemaking between Israelis and Palestinians. And Sola will be sharing her reactions after the conversations. It's a tough and really sensitive issue given the ongoing genocide in Gaza. To date, 43,300 people have been killed. And the UN has reported that 70% of the victims are women and children, with children making up 44% of the dead. We've never had that before. (.) So where do we start? It's been 57 years since the 1967 war that led to the current occupation of the West Bank Territories, Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem. And of course, it's been over a year since the October 7th attacks in Israel that killed 1,200 Israelis. The space for dialogue internationally in civil society and the media has shrunk. There's a lot of polarization with people hurling abuse and unfounded accusations at each other to basically silence any conversation, and especially those who are still insisting that the only way that we're going to get through all these issues is through dialogue, not through bombs. They're definitely getting attacked in all sorts of arenas. It's complicated. It's huge in so many ways. But it's also, for me, a very personal issue because it's central to the work that I've been doing. Back in the 1990s, when I first started, Israeli and Palestinian women were really at the forefront of coming up with solutions, working together, having the courage to appear together in public long before the Oslo Accords were actually signed. Over the years, I followed the conflict, worked with peace builders on both sides. And of course, we've all watched the events with horror because ultimately, peace will have to come through political and societal dialogues and negotiations and compromises. And I get really frustrated when politicians say two-state solution because they seem to be in denial about one of the biggest obstacles to a viable Palestinian state, which is the expansion of Israeli settlements and the colonization of the West Bank-occupied territories and other territories. These settlements are illegal by international law. So very complicated issues. Obviously, a lot of hurt and anger and trauma amongst everybody. And I'm stepping into the fray knowing that it might cause some tension. But I really hope that these two conversations that I'm having will help us see that there is light, even in this dark tunnel, if we choose to see it. My guest this week is Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger. He's an Orthodox rabbi and teacher. He serves as the director of international relations for an organization called Roots. And he's also the founder of the American Friends of Roots. Roots itself is a unique network of local Palestinians and Israelis who've come together to see each other as partners trying to find a solution to the conflict. And they do so based on mutual recognition of each people's connection to the land. For some background on why I'm sort of focusing on the question of land and settlements. Back in 1994, when the two sides signed the Oslo Accords, a key pillar was that settlement building in the occupied territories of West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights would stop. But they didn't. The settlements continued to expand in all three areas, especially in the occupied West Bank. And people have seen their lands confiscated and their access to clean water and road and basic services really restricted. The numbers are also pretty stark. In 1994, there were roughly 285,000 settlers. By February of this year, 2024, the Times of Israel reported that the number was over 500,000. And the predictions by 2030 are that there will be over 600,000 settlers. And the Palestinians living in the West Bank live under Israeli military rule. Many are subject to violence, especially now. We don't often hear about it, but their homes, their lands, the villages are being targeted. And these are people who are coming in from other countries. Some may have no idea that they're moving into illegal settlements. Others are actually explicitly violent. So how do they justify their presence, especially their takeover of people's ancestral homes and lands? Who are these people and how can there possibly be peace in the region? I wanted to talk to someone who could explain the ideology of the settlers and is also committed to a just peace with Palestinians. Rabbi Schlesinger originally hails from New York. He emigrated to Israel at the age of 20 in 1970 and lived in one of these settlements with his wife and children and grandchildren. But in 2013, he had an epiphany and it set him on a new journey, which he shares in our conversation. (........) Rabbi Schlesinger, welcome. May I call you, Hanan, as we carry on our conversation?
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger Absolutely.
Sanam Thank you. Thank you for joining me today. You're welcome. I wanted to first acknowledge that this is probably one of the more difficult conversations that I have had in recent times, specifically about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, specifically now you're into the sort of the Gaza conflict. I'm not sure how you feel. Are you going around the world talking about these issues and what you're doing? How's it been for you so far?
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger That's a difficult question. Yes, we, not I, we, myself and one of my Palestinian colleagues, we've done two month-long speaking trips in the U.S. since October 7th, and there's a world of things to talk about as far as emotions and politics and worldviews and trauma. So we have to be specific. You lead me.
Sanam Thank you. I mean, part of it, as you say, is the question of the trauma from which everybody is coming from, the historic trauma. Then we have the trauma for Israel and for Israelis, and I'm sure your friends, family and others of October 7th specifically. (.) And then at the same time, we have the Palestinian historic trauma, but the ongoing trauma in the sense that it feels like every day this war goes on, there is another family, another child, another mother, another father whose trauma is being exacerbated because of the violence. And so how is it, how can one kind of stop and talk about the future when the trauma is still going on? This seems to me one of the big issues that we're dealing with, at least those of us who are in the peace community and trying to look to the future.
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger Well, you asked, how can we look to the future and talk about the future under these circumstances? And the answer is that we can't. Now, you have to define who we is. (.) When I said we can't, I mean my society. Israeli society at this point is clearly unable. (..) So, one of my Palestinian partners, Noor Awad, often says that he and I and the circle of peace activists involved in Roots, and this is also for our peace activists of the organization, we live in a different universe. (..) The fact that he and I and the other activists can talk to the other side right now, can understand, can envision a way forward, means that for 90% of societies, we're crazy or we're naive or we don't live in reality, we don't see what's happening. Now, of course, we, meaning the peace activists, we say the same thing to the 90% of the society. You don't see what's happening. So, it's two different universes, unfortunately, which is really, really painful. It means that we peace activists, we have a sense that we see a reality that the others are blind to. And when I say the others, I don't mean the other side. I mean, the others in both societies, they live in a world of trauma, of victimhood, of the forces of light against the forces of darkness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Sanam You know, we hear in the rhetoric of the politicians and so forth that, you know, two-state solution, constantly they talk about a two-state solution. But when you dig down and you see the question of settlers and how many settlers there are now in the West Bank, 700,000, I think, between that West Bank and East Jerusalem and Golan Heights, what is the message that you are conveying and you're hoping that people will hear as a pathway to a solution? (.)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger So, let me put the headline on the table. (.) The headline is, two truths in one heart, two peoples in one land. (.) To say that differently, you don't have to be wrong for me to be right. I don't have to spend all my energy proving that you're wrong so I can be right, because you can be right and I can be right, which means that there are two peoples, two real, indigenous, legitimate peoples, the Jewish people and Palestinian people, that are deeply connected to that land. (.) Our message is that fundamentally this is a conflict over identity. (.) Israelis, by and large, do not accept the existence of the Palestinian people and certainly do not accept the connection of the Palestinian people to the land. (.) And Palestinians, by and large, do not accept the existence of the Jewish people. They talk about the Jewish religion, not the Jewish people. And they do not accept the Jewish connection to the land. (.) So, we're saying that fundamentally, both sides have to accept the other side's identity. We have to recognize the other side's identity. We have to begin to see its legitimacy. In other words, not just the humanity of the side is important, but the identity and the connection to the land of the side. And once you have that fundamental acceptance and recognition and even empathy for the other side's identity and belonging to the land, then solutions are possible. (.) So, let me go back to what I said I was going to unpack two minutes ago. I usually put on the table four principles that are very, very difficult for Israelis and Palestinians to accept. But it seems to me they're what we need in order to go forward. Number one, there is such a thing as the Palestinian people. (..) And its corollary is such, there's such a thing as the Jewish people. (.) You'll find almost no one that accepts both those points. (.) The second point, there's such a thing as the land of Palestine. (.) And it's corollarily, it's such a thing as the land of Israel. (.) Again, you'll find almost no one accepts both sides of that. Number three, the Palestinian people are deeply connected to the land of Palestine. And the corollary, the Jewish people are deeply connected to the land of Israel. (..) Those three points, each with its other side of the coin, leads us to the fourth point, which is excruciatingly difficult, (.) which is the historical borders of the land of Palestine (.) and the historical borders of the land of Israel are more or less the exact same borders. (.) That's excruciatingly difficult. To admit that my homeland is their homeland and their homeland is my homeland. And then, what that means is that from the river to the sea is all Palestine. (.) Here I am, an Israeli, Jewish, religious, Zionist settler, saying that the whole land from the river to the sea, the Jordan River to the Mediterranean, is all Palestine. That's historical truth. That's not going to change. (.) And if you won't admit it's a historical truth, at least admit it's a truth of identity. That's not going to change. (.) And the reason, or one of the reasons why I can comfortably say that, is because I know my Palestinian partners in Roots have come to the conclusion that the whole land from the sea to the river is historically Israel. (..) That's, again, a fact of history and a fact of identity. It's not going to change. (.) So, once we have that, if we can get that far, that the land has two identities, Mother Earth, the Holy Land, has given birth to two children. They're both fighting over who's the real child, the legitimate child. And here, I'm coming and saying that both children are legitimate progeny of the Mother of Holy Land, (..) then the rest of it is not easy, but it's not that hard.
Sanam When did you have your moment of realizing this recognition and the importance of recognizing and seeing Palestinians for what they are and who they are and their connection? What was your own story for this? (.)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger The last Wednesday of January 2014, as the sun was going down. You asked when, that's the answer. And what happened on that day? A few months before that, I was driving in my car in the area where I live, south of Jerusalem. We call it Judea. (..) And I had with me two Protestant evangelical pastors from the U.S. in the car who wanted to see the fulfillment of biblical prophecy of the Jews coming home to the land of Israel after 2,000 years of exile. (.) With great pride, I drove them around and I showed them around the roads we paved, the forests we planted, the buildings, the settlements, the institutions, the synagogues that we've constructed. were driving and I saw a hitchhiker in the side of the road. I picked them up. (..) After another few minutes, I saw another young man. I picked them up as well. (..) We drove. They asked to get out, dropped them off, started to drive again. (..) And one of the pastors said to me the following words. He said, Hanan, you just taught us a lesson in Jewish ethics. You picked up hitchhikers. That's great. No one does it in Texas. They're from Texas, one of them. (..) And I said to them, you know, it's not just me around here. We all pick up hitchhikers because we have a common vision. We trust each other. And just like everyone else, I do my best to pick up every person who puts out his finger for a ride. (..) By the time I finished that sentence, I realized that I was lying. (..) I was lying to the two pastors. And even worse, I was lying to myself. (..) I really believed what I said, that I try to pick up every person. (..) But it dawned on me that it's not true. I pick up only Jews. (...) And after a conversation with those two pastors, it became clear that what allowed me to say what I said, that I pick up every person, is because the only persons I saw, which is, now there's lots of Palestinians walking on the side of the road waiting for rides, but I didn't see them. I literally, almost literally didn't see them. (..) And what that means is, so I began to realize in that car ride, is that in a certain sense, I'm a bigot or I'm blind. (.) The Palestinians are like the gray, drab scenery that passes in the background of the movie, but they're not part of the plot, not part of the story. (..) I began to understand over the course of days and weeks and months, and years actually, (..) that I live within my Jewish story, my Zionist story, my Israeli story. And that story is me, and I love it, and it's beautiful, it's glorious, it's true, it's legitimate, it's the meaning of my life. But it's blinded me to the fact that there's another story in this land. (..) There's another people in this land. (..) And today, I believe that if you mistake part of the truth for the whole truth, you're pretty close to falsehood, and that's not a place I want to be anymore. (.) And a long, difficult, excruciatingly difficult process began that ultimately brought me to the place where I am today, and I'm still changing and developing and seeing new things. I've become, like I said earlier in the conversation, it's a certain degree alienated from my society. I admit that. (..) But I've also become liberated. I have a sense that I see things other people don't see, and I experience things other people don't experience. By the way, my Palestinian partners feel the same way, that they've been liberated. You're liberated from the shackles of the tunnel vision that doesn't allow you to see the larger reality. There really are two truths. Actually, there's more than two truths. This world is full of opposing realities. And from my perspective, from a theological perspective, God is the kaleidoscope that collects together in a dynamic collection multiple truths that are intention. And my job as a human being and as a Jew is to learn to include, to ratify more and more of those truths and live within the tension of this kaleidoscope. (..)
Sanam It's what you're saying. First of all, it's extraordinary. And thank you for sharing that. Secondly, my first reaction as I was listening to you saying your own awareness was that how do you then convey that to the people that you're closest to? You know, when you have, when your eyes open and you see, and then you begin to question your own, you say, your own exclusionary views or your own bigotry, as you said, and (.) you want to share it with your friends and family, how does that work? Because I can see the alienation and it's almost like you get alienated from one side, but there's a whole world of people that open up to you and want to be your friend. But still, your closest and your dearest people are probably the ones that you may be losing. What was that like and what is that like right now?
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger So you ask, how does it work? And the answer is it doesn't work. It doesn't work because what I gained includes facts, but more than facts, it's experience. (...) I experienced Palestinians as human beings and I experienced Palestinians as Palestinians. In other words, as bearers of a national, cultural, religious, historical identity that contradicts mine, but it's still true. (.) How do I convey that to other people? (..) So I'll say kind of cynically, that's it. There's no way. You can't do it. (...) And then I'll say, if you really want to try, the answer is experience, not fact. (..) So both I say and my pleasant partner say that there's nothing we can say to get our own side to open their eyes and their minds. What we may be able to do is encourage them to come and meet the other side. (.) And since we began 10 years ago, 2014, thousands of local Israelis and local Palestinians have come to meet the other side, as well as tens of thousands of Israelis from around the country who've come. And 200,000 people from around the world have come to see this amazing, miraculous center. (..) So in these face-to-face meetings, people undergo human transformations. (..) By the way, we call ourselves the Israeli-Palestinian Grassroots Initiative for Understanding Nonviolence and Transformation. (.) Transformation there means personal transformation leading to political transformation. I'm a member of a movement called the Land for All, which advocates for an Israeli state, a Palestinian state, and a confederation be between them.
Sanam So, you know, I wanted to talk to you specifically on the question of what happens with settlements. And I'm just wondering, but in a very practical way, I have a colleague right now who's living in Bethlehem and at night she has, she lives on a ground floor flat, and at night she's had, you know, settlers with, you know, baseball bats and guns roaming around her neighborhood, threatening her. People have been forced off of their homelands or houses and so forth. We have so many Israeli Jews or settlers that have come in from other places, and they are often the ones who are being violent or intolerant towards the Palestinian community. And I don't think that they're going to listen to somebody like me or to a Palestinian. I think that they would, you know, in a way you have the access to them because you know how to talk to them. How do you engage on these issues with your own community? (.)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger Yeah, very important question. So part of the raison d'etre roots of our organization is to create a voice for peace within the national religious community, within the settler community, within those who have been considered by others and have considered, been considered by themselves as against peace. (.) That's why our work is in the West Bank. It's in Judah and Samaria. That's why we create our community center, the dignity center in the heart of the West Bank. (.) That's why our mission is to bring together Israelis who are settlers with Palestinians. There's no other organization doing that. (..) So now the four of the activists in roots on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side, (.) we spend a lot of time day in, day out, week in and week out for months and years together, listening together, applying all the values and the skills of listening and of open-mindedness and of pluralism and of finding truth on the other side. (..) And in this core group of people in roots, I would say that to a certain degree, a large degree, we've been able to heal from what I call the hubris of exclusivity, as if our side has all the truth. No, there is humanity and there's legitimate identity and there's truth on the other side, (..) which is wonderful. This expanding of horizons, expanding of identity, of coming to a place of really, really being able to empathize with the other side is absolutely what we're about and it's wonderful. (.) But what happens is, sometimes, many times, is that the activists on both sides, Israelis and Palestinians who are doing this intensive work, we end up so successful that we put ourselves in a new universe, a universe that 95% of our constituencies on the Israelis on the Palestinian side are not there. We're in our own world. (..) And what can happen is, and sometimes does happen, is that we begin developing a language or understanding that our communities cannot relate to, cannot identify with, cannot understand and think is just traitorous and ridiculous and is heretical. (.) So what do we do? So as I often mention, I am thinking of one and a few people in roots, my colleagues in leadership who really have this uncanny, this wonderful ability to not only empathize with the other side, but not to lose their empathy with their own people, not to lose the common language of their own people. In other words, there are some people, Israelis and Palestinians, the leadership of roots, who are really able to apply our ideology and our values and do the work that needs to be done. Keeping up, I'm talking on the Israeli side now, keeping up the dialogue with the settler community, speaking their language and slowly showing them an additional truth together with the deep partnership with the Palestinians. However, I think that to a certain degree, I'm a failure. (..) In other words, I have developed such an understanding of the Palestinian cause and people and such an empathy and such friendships and such understanding that I've begun to lose my empathy for my own people and begun to reach a place of a certain despair for my own people. They just don't get it. They just don't see what I see. They're drinking this ridiculous Kool-Aid. (...) So I have work to do. (..) And I think that I have to be very, very aware that I don't always practice what I preach. I practice and I teach and I preach and I lecture about pluralism and accepting the other and listening and finding truth on the other side. And I believe it so much. I really do believe it. I think the world needs it. (.) But then I realize that I practice what I preach only with certain opinions and certain people I don't agree with. But other people that I don't agree with, I don't practice it there. And I'm becoming more and more aware of my unconscious bias in who I apply what I preach to and who I don't. (..) I don't want to say what my bias is because that will cause bias in the audience. But I have this bias, so I'm just going to describe now in one minute the inner work that I'm trying to do. (..) Be aware of this bias. (..) Be aware of the judgmentalism. Be aware that I'm not practicing what I'm preaching. And connect to the visceral anxiety and visceral opposition that is aroused in my soul and my heart when I hear these opinions from my own side, from my own people. (.) And know that I can't undo my anxieties. I can't undo my biases. But I can be aware of them. (.) And I can connect to them. (.) And I can try to correct for them. They're always going to be there. You can't, I can't just beat myself up. They're always going to be there. And I'm not a bad person for having these biases. I don't hate the people that I don't agree with that I can't listen to. (.) But I have some type of existential anxiety. (...) So just to be aware of it, to work on it, to talk about it, right? If I, if I expose myself, at least I'm, I'm not being hypocritical.
Sanam I'm a profoundly secular person, if you want. I come from a, you know, a Persian empire, which started the whole Cyrus Cylinder. And it said, you can have whatever faith you want, provided you follow the rules. You know, that, that's basically kind of the difference between state and state and faith. And if you want, despite what's happening in Iran now. (..) And to me, the answer seems to be simple. To me, the answer would be that, well, if you're going to live in a country, you have to, everybody has to follow the rules equally, right? And it, it seems that, again, when we're talking about the settler community, on the one hand, they're coming in and taking other people's land, which is, which goes against the Ten Commandments. I mean, you know, if we're, if we're, if we're going by faith, um, on the other hand, it's as if they want to live by their own rules and, and are unwilling to see themselves as equal under the law. Is, is that a kind of, is that a fair assessment? (.)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger So first of all, let me just back up a little. (..) When I talk about, uh, listening about tolerance, about openness, about seeing some truth on the side. I don't mean, uh, lying down and letting people kill each other. I don't mean, uh, be, uh, condoning behavior that is a moral, but I mean being able to listen to people's ideology, listen to their beliefs, uh, accept their way of life. Again, not in their relationship with other people, uh, of the other side, accept their way of life, see some validity and some truth, some humanity and some goodness, even on the other side, I mean, within my own people, the camps I don't believe in. (.) But at the same time, of course, I have to work for what I believe in. I have to work for what I believe to be, uh, morality and the true Judaism. (..) Okay, so that's, uh, that's a introduction now. (...) Let's try and understand the, uh, extremist settler community that is violent against Palestinians. (.....) You talked about the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments says, you shall not steal, you shall not kill. (..) But of course, uh, these people that we're talking about, they know Judaism better than you do, so they look at the Bible that talks about the Israelites, the 12 tribes leaving Egypt, going to the desert 40 years, and then at the divine command, conquering the land of Canaan, of eradicating the seven Canaanite nations, of literally killing them and occupying their land at God's command. (...) There's a lot of violence in the Bible, in the Jewish Bible. (..) And I mean commands to do violence, and I mean, uh, descriptions of how that was carried out. (..) Now, later Jewish tradition after the Bible, over 2,000 years of what's called rabbinic, Judea's rabbinic tradition, did, uh, important work in reinterpreting that violence, giving it a spiritual interpretation, uh, finding ways to say that that was true in the past, but not in the present, doesn't apply anymore. For example, the seven Canaanite nations, the rabbis say, don't exist anymore, and therefore those commands are null and void. And also even reinterpreting what happened in the past. (..) Now, what's happening is today, and I'm being very, I'm simplifying things, part of what's going on in the minds of religious Zionism, in those religious Jews or Zionists or setting the land, I'm referring specifically to the settler community, is a reconnecting to the visceral physicality of the Bible, leapfrogging over and, in a sense, uh, erasing the rabbinic tradition of 2,000 years that attenuated and, uh, moralized and spiritualized all of this terrible stuff from the Bible, such that for many, many settlers today, we Jewish settlers are the 12 tribes who just left Egypt 40 years ago, we're conquering the land, and the Palestinians are the modern-day Canaanites, and we have a command to do what God said to conquer the Jewish land for the Jewish people, because it's our land, because God gave it to us. Now, let's be very clear, I'm not saying what I believe, I'm saying what they believe. (....) And secondly, these violent actions are very much understood by those committing them in the fashion, I just said, but also as self-defense. Self-defense, the Arabs, they don't call them Palestinians, they call them Arabs, are violent, they don't know who's in charge, they don't understand that it's our land, they're just trying to displace us from our land, they're, uh, they're primitive, and we just have to defend ourselves.
Sanam I mean, this, this is a textbook extremism, radicalization, where, where you take one identity and you make it so supreme above others that it justifies violence, it justifies, and as you say, you find the, the validity in some texts somewhere, and, and, I mean, you know, you see it in the extremist and the Islamic tradition and the Hindu nationalism, so it's the same kind of thing.
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger And let me add, let me add, you said, you would, you used the word, uh, supremacist supremacy, so I want to add, I have to add, that in Jewish tradition, there is an approach that says that Jews are spiritually superior to non-Jews. There's such an approach that Jews have a godly soul that non-Jews don't have. (.) There is a disagreement in over two thousand years of Jewish tradition between that approach and the other approach that says all souls are created equal. And I have to say, as far as I see things, this is sociological observation, that in the past 30, 40 years, the, uh, the mystical approach, the ontological approach that says the Jewish soul is ontologically essentially different than the non-Jews soul, that approach has won within religious Zionism today, within the settler movement, it's won. And, and therefore the things that you're describing, the violence of the settlers has fueling it, these three things that we just said. Number one, that this is like biblical times where the Jewish tribes fighting the Cainites at God's command. Number two, it's only self-defense. And number three, we are spiritually superior to them. (.)
Sanam So first of all, the fact that you mentioned the 40 years, I think is really fascinating. Cause again, I could take, I, we could go back to the 19, 1980, if you want, with the rise of Islamist traditions and then Wahhabism that's come out of South Saudi Arabia and so forth, that has taken that extreme, like fundamentalist, but we call it extremism because it's not just the fundamentals of the, of the faith, but we're seeing that white supremacy. I mean, so this 40 years has been a really interesting thing around extremes, talking to extremes and coming into the mainstream across many societies. Again, it goes. So going back to what do we do about this? Do you have, are you working with, um, you know, communities of rabbis or, or religious scholars to try and change this? Is there a willingness to, to, to see how dangerous this has been and to try and sort of shift it from the standpoint of the, if you want the teachers and the scholars, um, or is it now so rooted on the ground that it's, it's going to take another 40 years of concerted effort to try and change it? Like, how do you see this sort of what's, what's the future that you're looking at?
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger So it's certainly going to take many, many years to change, but let's go back a little bit. (.) Certainly in my opinion, part of what's going on here is a battle for the soul of Judaism. (...) I feel quite honestly alienated from the majority expressions of Judaism within religious Zionism today. (.) I have many people that I can talk to about it, but still we're on already rabbis and lay people that think that a travesty has been committed here and is still being committed and it's getting worse. (.) And yes, indeed, part of the solution is within the Beit Midrash, within the study or within (..) a traditional Jewish scholarship of elevating those traditional voices that believe differently than what's happening today. Okay, so there is work in Roots on this subject and there are other organizations that we work together with in Roots, organizations that are bigger and have bigger budgets than us. There is just, for example, in the city of Efrat, which is right near my home, there is a framework (.) of Torah institutions, of Jewish religious institutions called Or Torah Stone, and they have a whole Beit Midrash. They have an old institute, a study hall that's called something like, (.) Jewish people, Jewish people and the religions of the world trying to work out through scholarly study and through the ancient texts and through reinterpretation, work out a better, more equal understanding of the relationship between the Jewish people and the rest of the world. (..)
Sanam A lot of your work, as you said, is focused on the U.S. as well. And when we talk about the settler community and their ties to the land and going back 3,000 years, for me, it's like saying that the American indigenous tribes, and we're not going 3,000 years back, we're going 200 years, 300 years, right? So, you know, how does that logic play out? I mean, you know, if everybody wanted to sort of make some claim to the land, Manhattan, Upper East Side should be handed over and, you know, Boston should be handed over. And how does that logic play out? Or what are the kind of conversations that you have in the U.S. about these issues? (.)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger So, I agree with what you're saying. In other words, had this logic of the settler community been applied across the board equally, yes, it applied to the American Indians as well. And by the way, I often say, I mean, I believe that just like America today is very, very contrite and sorry about what they did to the Native Americans years ago, I believe that Israel will be very, very contrite in another 50 years about what they're doing to the Palestinians. It may be too late then, right? It's easier to apologize when the evil is already done.
Sanam I was going to say that, you know, if people are put into little, you know, pockets of land and contained, you can always be contrite, but you're not giving it back to them, right?
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger Yeah. So now, let me move directly to relating to your question. I have a close friend, colleague, who's a pastor. When I was a rabbi in Dallas, Texas, we did a lot of interfaith work together and we had deep, deep conversations. And he said to me once the following, he said, Hanan, everything you're saying, the claim of Jesus being the son of God, you're right, Hanan, it's crazy. It's totally illogical. It's impossible to imagine, except that it's true. (...) So I would say the same thing here. My settler community that's involved in the violence and the land reps that's involved in would say, yeah, what we're doing that we're claiming the land for God, because the Bible says that we have the obligation and our understanding of vitally concrete. Yeah, it's crazy. And it shouldn't be applied any place in the world, but by us, it's true. God really said it. So we have to do what he said. In other words, it's the claim of exclusivism. It's the claim of uniqueness that our case is different.
Sanam If you were in charge or if there was an opportunity to create a kind of a national coalition dialogue space where you had a significant role and you could shape policy as well as, you know, the practice on the ground, what is it that you would do if you were in charge? What would you do? (.)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger There clearly has to be enormous amounts of money spent on education, education within the religious scientist community. We're talking about study of Jewish texts, about writing articles and books. We're talking about creating interfaith study halls. We're talking about connecting people. So we're talking about the scholars. We're talking about youth movements, bring the two sides together. (..) And we're talking about amazing amounts of money that have to be spent on public relations campaigns, on television, on radio, on social media, all about overcoming the hubris of exclusivity, overcoming hyper-nationalism. It's also, of course, about practical steps that are, that have to be taken right now, about the army and the police enforcing the law, preventing settler violence. It's about rabbis and community leaders right now getting up and and acting against this violence, about parents reining in their, their kids. And Roots is involved in this work. Not enough, but we're doing what we can. Much more has to be done. And this has to be true, of course, not just on the Jewish side, also on the, on the other side, on the Palestinian side. (.)
Sanam What keeps you going and what genuinely gives you hope? (..)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger I think that, uh, it's not a divine decree. It doesn't have to be like this. The conflict is a result of bad decisions that, uh, both sides made for at least a hundred years. So, (.) which means I know it could be different. It doesn't have to be like this. And I know it's going to be different in another 500 years or 400 or 300 or 200 or 100 or less. It all depends on us, us meaning Israelis and Palestinians. Our fate is really in our hands. So as difficult as it is, it's completely possible. And I have seen with my own eyes how Israelis and Palestinians, in Roots and other organizations have been changed by meeting the other and have opened their eyes and their hearts and their minds and their souls to the other side and become advocates for change and for peace. It happened to me. In other words, I give, in a certain sense, you can say I give myself hope because if I could, if I changed like I did, other people can also. (...)
Sanam When you see what's happened in Gaza, what's your message to Gazans living through, and now in Lebanon? Um, what's your message to them? Um, if you could meet them, if you could talk to them directly, like what, what would be your, you know, it's personal message, I think, but what, what, what's your, from your heart, what comes out when you see
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger what's happening? I'm ashamed of what my identity and my people in my state is doing to them. That (..) doesn't mean that I think that all the blame is on our side, the Jewish side, but some of it is. (..) Um, I'm ashamed and I'm sorry and I'm broken and I'm, and I just want to reach out and together work for a better future. Thank you. Totally possible.
Sanam Thank you. Thank you very much. And, and, uh, and I, yeah, I wish I could give you a hug because I think that this is at the end of this. //S01: I was just going to say the same thing.// The same thing. So that's what happens to us. I don't know. It, it, it's the, you know, the value of the hug and it says a lot more than, than all the words we could be saying. (........) Okay. Um, so our conversation's just finished. Uh, what did you think? What, what were your first reactions or, um, thoughts as you were listening or feelings as you were listening to it? So the,
Soleh the first thing that struck me was definitely his story about what caused his change in mindset and like what triggered this, like almost revelation that he had. And it was so interesting to me that it was such a small moment, like just seeing someone on the side of the road and then describing it, like saying that he would pick anybody up and then just internally realizing that he was not telling the truth and that he wouldn't pick anybody up. The fact that he just had that realization after such a small incident was kind of fascinating to me because you'd think that people would have these realizations after seeing all the atrocities and all that, that is, that is going on. But instead it was a really small moment. And so, yeah, that was kind of the first thing that I was struck by from his story.
Sanam It just shows how much change comes through kind of a visceral experience or something experiential, not just reading a newspaper or, or, you know, hearing the statistics. Um, and I, and frankly, these days, you know, one of the issues that, that we were struggling with is that people are hearing and reading different information, right? So if, if you don't have the information about the other side, it, it, it, it, you don't even, you don't even know what you don't know, right? So, so this question of the theme of the personal experience and the interaction becomes, it is sort of seems to me was something that went, was the thread that, that was a part of the conversation as well. (.)
Soleh Yeah, definitely. And that seems like what he's trying to do with his organization as well, trying to have people interact like from both sides and have these personal experiences. But yeah, it was just, I don't know, that was kind of something that I found surprising in a way, I guess. Like I was expecting him almost to say like, oh, when maybe he like went to Gaza or something like that, something like that was kind of what I was expecting. But then it was just, yeah, such a small
Sanam thing. Um, what he, you know, he mentioned the narrative of being persecuted and, and being tested as, as, as, as, as the Jewish people, you know, these are not stories that we necessarily know. I mean, it's not, it's not, it's not part of our, you know, if you're growing up in a secular family, um, a non-Jewish family, this is not necessarily the kinds of things that we hear about. Was that, was any of that new or different for you? (.)
Soleh I think I was somewhat aware of this story, particularly because I thought it was interesting that he had, it was like Protestant friends who were coming to visit, right? Because there is this kind of strain also of evangelicals in the U.S. who think that, you know, the Jewish people need to return to the homeland and that's going to bring about whatever. So there, I don't know, I, like I'd been, I'd heard this story before, but it was interesting when he talked about kind of the education, yeah, that how like deep that goes and how also that's kind of used to justify the fact that the rest of the world is saying, like, no, no, you can't do this, that then, like, reinforces to them the, the idea that, that it's right, which is, I thought that was interesting. I didn't, I didn't know that that was kind of the mentality. (.)
Sanam So, so for me also, it was the, the issue that, you know, this isn't just about political leaders getting together and saying, you know, we're gonna, now it's time to make peace. I mean, if you need that, obviously, and we don't have that there right now, but even if we did, there is, as he said, a long journey of engaging the public, creating spaces for people, you know, for these community centers and changing the narrative that, that goes so deep, right? It's, it's, uh, I did think it's doable, but it's complicated. Yeah.
Soleh Yeah. He had these, like, four points that, that the Palestinian people and Jewish people both have the right to exist. And then that there's the land of Palestine and the land of Israel, both are deeply connected to the land and that the historical borders are approximately the same. So I thought that was, I don't know, this, that was kind of a very clear laying out of what he is trying to teach people, basically, like within Israel or like within the, the, the populations that he's working with and the points of conflict that he's facing in terms of the education process. But I did some of the points that he made where he was like, that nobody accepts it. I thought that was interesting because I guess maybe he meant like nobody that he's talking to. But I do think that a lot of people do accept that, like both Palestinians and Jewish people exist. But anyway, it was very like clear four points that I think kind of summarized well, where a lot of the conflict, like, like ideologically also comes from. (.)
Sanam I also struck by how he, you know, very openly says that he's got, you know, people who he used to be friends with, um, can't accept his position now. Right. And, and this idea of what are the risks that you take on a personal basis when you, when you decide to engage in peacemaking in a context where, you know, people think of it as existential. So, so, you know, that they think that he's betraying his own, what, what would that feel like? I, I always kind of think about that when I meet people who
Soleh have had the courage to, to, to take this kind of a journey. Um, in the years that I've been
Sanam involved in this work, of course, I've come across and I've worked with many Israelis, a lot of Israeli women, uh, particularly who have engaged in peace dialogues and this reframing and understanding and, and, um, accepting both Israeli and Palestinians. For me, it was really the first time that I had an in-depth conversation with someone who came from both the sort of the religious ideological background and as a, as someone who had chosen to be one of the settlers. So do you think that a perspective like his coming from the sort of ideological framework that he has and being able to explain the logic that is used in that framework, but then how, how illogical it seems when you step out of it? Do you think that's useful for the rest of the world to hear and see and, and I mean, understand as well?
Soleh I definitely think it's useful. Like there's a reason that he's doing the work that he's doing, right? Because he's able to communicate to people who like we, or anybody who doesn't come from that background probably isn't able to communicate with. So, and that way, I think his perspective is like super valuable because it's clearly like there's a population that there's information is not permeating, right? Like the media and education is all directed in one direction. So, um, and also they, like, there's probably not a lot of trust, right? Around outside sources. And there's, there's also the kind of idea that anybody who's saying things against, um, Israel is, uh, must be anti-Semitic and those kinds of things. So having perspectives like from within are crucial to actually changing like mindsets. (..)
Sanam I think that's exactly right. The messenger is critical to conveying the message. And, and this is part of what we see around the world where we have kind of radicalization and polarization and mistrust happening that, you know, the, what we say can be correct, but who we are, it might, it seems to matter more in terms of whether people are willing to accept it or not. What do you think of his
Soleh suggestion for what, what he would do if he was in charge, like the kind of setup that he would?
Sanam Uh, you know, I, I found it interesting because on two, two levels. So on the one hand, the fact that he, you know, didn't shy away from the complexity of it being political and a societal change, right. That, that you need that, that both. And, and again, in my work, we, we always talk about, you know, peacemaking is political will, but it's also about inclusivity. So, you know, I wasn't surprised, but I was, I was kind of overwhelmed by, by how complex it is and how complex it has become in the, even in the last 30, 40 years, 30 years since, since the, uh, Oslo Accord was signed in 1994. So that was certainly sort of one aspect of it. And then the other thing, which, um, which I was sort of struck with was that, you know, his humility, um, in saying, you know, certain things were above his pay grade. And I, and I wanted to say, no, you know, the reason why we need your voice and, and we need to have inclusive peacemaking processes is precisely because, uh, actually your perspective or his perspective and people like him really, really matter. Um, and I see this again, I see this often with local peacemakers that they shy away from the big political spaces or the more sort of, you know, formalized spaces. And, and I think that we need to bust those doors open and, and, you know, take down the walls because that those kind of exclusive spaces are really part of the problem and, and have led us to, to, to many of the problems that we face right now, um, in that, in that conflict and another conflict. So, yeah, I was kind of struck, but, and then, and then just the warmth. I mean, it, it, you know, um, it's, (..) uh, it, it would be interesting to, to meet in person, right. And, and, and, and see how much common ground in our shared humanity we have. I mean, and, and that again is, is part of what as, as peacemakers we do and, and we look at the future and, and, and I just, I really appreciated that. But I, but I did also find another comment right early on that he said that I found, um, (.) interesting and, and, and sort of amusing in some ways was that he was saying that, you know, his perspective and looking into the future is not something that others can see. It's almost like they think, you know, uh, you're sort of slightly crazy or something. And I was thinking that's exactly how I look at the world and that's exactly how my partners, um, in peacemaking around the world see these issues. We look at the future to, to deal with the present and deal with the past. We're not, you know, we try and get ourselves out of the trauma of the past, but, but clearly this is a, you know, might minority of the population or, or certainly a narrative that is not sufficiently sort of out in the public space, um, for others to, to engage with. Right. So, so those were some of my thoughts as I, as I was listening to him.
Soleh Yeah. Well, while you were saying, I think one phrase that I liked of his, or that I thought was interesting was he said that it's the hubris of exclusivity. I thought that was an interesting point that he made that like, it's, it has to be inclusive and that thinking that things can be exclusive is like, you're never going to get anywhere with that.
Sanam Yeah. That was an interesting point. And it kind of, it made me question my own perspective, right? Like I said, I was like, wait, am I, you know, do I have that hubris as well in, in, you know, how I'm understanding these issues or how I see the world. And, and part of it was as, as he was talking about ideological and, and religious framework and, and history, like the cultural DNA, I was also thinking about my cultural DNA, right? And, and what it means to come from, from Iran and, and from a context where pluralism has been really integral to our identity going back 2,500 years. Like it's, there is a, there's something about cultural DNA, which we don't talk about publicly, um, very much, but it, but it really shapes how we see the world. And, and to be aware of that, I think is also really important for all of us right
Soleh now. Yeah. Next week you're interviewing a Palestinian activist and I was just like, I guess, are you taking anything from this interview? Like, is there anything that kind of maybe weren't going to talk about
Sanam before, but now maybe you will? I, I think definitely, I think the, I think the, I think I will try and understand what it feels like to be a Palestinian at the receiving end of this ideology, which is, which as, as, um, Hanan mentioned, you know, invisibilizes Palestinians or the identity of Palestinians. So, so kind of what, what it feels like to be, to be on that side of it, especially from somebody who lives within Israel proper and the tensions of being a Palestinian Israeli, you know, having the ties with, with what's happening in the West Bank and Gaza. So, so that, that's certainly one aspect of it. And then I think that, you know, I might tease out some of the other perspectives on the political solution or on the settlement question, because I think it was great to hear that there is, you know, one version of what could be done differently, right? From, from what we heard. Um, but I think that there are other versions as well. And, and then where the similarities are. It's interesting that people are looking at it in terms of a confederation, ultimately, that somehow the interdependency has to be acknowledged between two states, two peoples. And, and that, as, as they, as you said, the connectivity to the land, those pieces, I will definitely. And then, what are the parallels? Like as a Palestinian peace activist, what are they trying to do? And where are the connections between the work that he may be doing and the work that an organization like Roots might be doing?
Soleh Yeah. I'm looking forward to listening to it and talking about it next week.
Sanam Great. Thank you very much for this one. (.........) This is an Africa digital audio production. My executive producer is Pierce Lynch, and it contains original music by Little Monster Media. Remember, you can catch a new episode of If You Were In Charge every Tuesday. A huge thanks from me to the Bosch Academy for making these conversations possible and to my own organization, ICANN, for allowing me the time to explore these big issues with my guests and spend some time with my daughters. If you want to get in touch, you can find all our social media links on our website, and the link is in the description of the episode. So that's it for If You Were In Charge. I'm Sanam Naraghi Anderlini. See you next time. Bye.